Gays, lesbians, bisexuals and the Bible
Reactions by visitors to Matthew Vines'
the Christian Post web site
During 2012-MAY, Matthew Vines delivered a presentation on the range of biblical interpretations of committed same-sex relationships. He later posted a video 1 and transcript 2 of his talk to You Tube and his personal web site. Subsequently, The Christian Post interviewed him. 3 This essay shows a sampling of the more interesting postings from among the 1,807 comments that readers of the Christian Post article posted during the first three days following the article being placed online.
This is one of the rare locations on this web site where I have added my own personal comments.
- Topic: Satan hates humanity; homosexuality caused by excessive love of one's own body. God picks an opposite-sex partner for everyone; Satan's goal is to stop procreation and cause the human race to become extinct:
- Posting 1: "If Satan hates mankind and desires nothing more than for mankind to not exist than what better way than convincing people it is perfectly fine to worship their body as God made it to the point they desire to "make love" to another made in that same image...although they know full well God gave them a mate made in the opposite design as a gift.
Woman was made for man.
And no procreation = no more man (whom satan despises).
For a man to reject God's gift of a daughter of God given in divine knowledge and wisdom from the beginning of earth until now, is a slap in the face to the Creator, The Judge of the Universe, who is the same and one as His first-born, highly esteemed Son, Jesus Christ.
Satan has also known this from the beginning of time and is well-versed in how to use an unwise, misguided man in putting soft, sweet, loving words in his mouth to make them sound like gospel truth. It's the ultimate defamation and twisting of truth and Christ has nothing in it just as satan has nothing in Christ."
- Posting 2 by a gay male: "Wait, so even if I were to remain celibate you're saying that's not enough? I have to marry some poor woman whose femininity, womanhood, and beauty I could not appreciate nor love?"
- Webmaster's comments: Studies of Identical twins separated at birth and raised separately where one twin is gay have proven that a homosexual orientation is caused by one's genes triggered on or off by some unknown factor in the environment.
A plan to eliminate the human race by reducing the number of children raised by gays and lesbians who constitute only about 5% of the population is doomed to failure. Humanity's greater problem is overpopulation. We could do with a lowering of the birth rate anyway.
- Topic: Being gay or lesbian is something of which to repent. God's will is that everyone be heterosexual. Through prayer, gays and lesbians will develop a heterosexual sexual orientation:
- Posting: You are to embrace Jesus Christ with everything that is within you. Confess, Repent and Deny. Before you know it, little by little you will have the desire to please God and fulfill His will for your life. The more that you put on Jesus Christ the greater your hatred of sin will increase...
- Webmaster's comments: This is commonly referred to as the "Pray the Gay Away" process. There is a general consensus among those psychiatrists, psychologists, human sexuality researchers, the LGBT community, etc. who are not religious conservatives, that the three sexual orientations -- homosexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality are morally neutral, and fixed in adulthood.
- Topic: A homosexual orientation is not caused genetically:
- Posting: "In our engagement with culture, we have to recognize and respond to one of the biggest challenges of all. Christians rightly frame questions of homosexual conduct around morality. In response, the world is saying to us "You just don't get it: This is not a question of morality but a question of civil rights." We have largely failed to address the reality that -- increasingly in the Western world -- sexual orientation is treated as the equivalent of race. Sexual identity is presumed to be a fundamental given of your very existence, determined before birth, and the bedrock of our identity. This is one area where being literate about science can help. For instance, many think homosexual orientation is genetically caused, even though the best science says “not so fast.” The latest and best behavioral genetics study of identical male twins looked at 71 twin pairs where one male co-twin could be defined as gay. How often do you think the other identical twin in the genetically-identical pair was also gay? They found that in only 7 cases out of the 71 was the second identical twin also gay. When it comes to race, 100% of identical twins match for race. Sexual orientation, whatever it is, is clearly not like race if only 10% of twin pairs match on this variable, so the analogy with race breaks down. This identical twin discordance suggests how little we understand about the homosexual condition, and how hasty it is to define personal identity around sexuality.
- Webmaster's comments: Numerous identical twin studies in which the co-twins were separated at birth and where one was gay found a match of approximately 60 to 70%. This indicates a very strong genetic component as the cause of homosexual orientation. We have posted a request for more information on this study. So far there has been no response.
- Topic: Assessing the will of God through prayer:
- Posting by a gay male: "... I have surrendered my life to Him and strive to live by His will daily. He has never stated that I am to marry a woman or remain celibate, on the contrary, He has told me to purify myself in preparation for marriage to a man.
- Webmaster's comments: We have long been curious about the reliability of prayer when it is used to assess the will of God. We have noted from the Emails that we receive that different people seem to get opposite messages from God. So we conducted a pilot study to determine whether people could reliably assess the will of God through prayer. We found that they sincerely believe that they can find what God wants. Hoewver, in reality, they cannot. Susan B. Anthony seems to have been correct back in 1896 CE when she said: "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
- Topic: When is sexual behavior moral and immoral?
- Posting: "... intimate sexual acts between members of the same sex are immoral (as are the same acts between heterosexual individuals who are not married to each other).
- Webmaster's comments: In order to accommodate almost everyone's beliefs concerning the moral status of sexual behavior by two people, it would seem that four variables need to be considered:
- the gender makeup of the couple.
- the nature of the relationship: whether it is a casual acquaintances, dating couple, exclusively dating couple, engaged, or married.
- whether the activity is totally consensual and lacking in manipulation.
- whether the activity is safe with respect to the transmission of STIs and to unwanted pregnancies.
Personally, I would give the first variable zero weight. But that is just me.
- Topic: Nature and purpose of sexual acts:
- Posting: "... The sexual act is ordered toward reproduction, thus it is only morally licit between married spouses who must be a male and female pair. Two males can never use the act to reproduce, nor can two females, so any use in those types of relationships is completely opposed to the inherent nature of the act."
- Webmaster's comments: In excess of 90% of married couples in the U.S. were non-virgins before marriage. I suspect that they would think differently about the above posting.
Having never participated in the a successful pregnancy, I view essentially all sexual acts as mainly directed at bonding the couple into a more emotionally intimate relationship. If the state is going to forbid same-sex couples from marrying, it would seem that they should also ban opposite-sex infertile couples from marrying as well as opposite-sex fertile couples who have no intention of procreating. Since the latter two restrictions are ridiculous, I would suggest that the former is as well. But again, that is just me.
- Topic: Condemning infertile couples along with same-sex couples:
- Posting: "Genesis 1:28 - God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.' I'm sorry but no matter how they try to justify it, a man and a man cannot multiply. What do you get when you lay a man and a woman down together? A baby, a human life. What about a man and man or woman and woman? Nothing, there is no life there."
- Response: "Not when I lay with my wife. She is infertile. So, we are living in sin then? Should I be trying to obtain another wife, or perhaps her hand maiden? Both are allowed in Scripture. The only reason God was mad at Abraham for sleeping with his handmaiden was because he doubted that God could have Sarah fertile when he said that He would make it happen. The 'obvious' interpretation of Scripture would support me obtaining another wife. I could, perhaps, rape a woman, then pay her dowry. Maybe I could conquer a town and take one of the virgins, while killing everyone else. ... like the Israelites did on God's command. So before you shove that ignorant, insulting argument in my face, be ready to tell me that I live in sin because I can't have a child with my wife."
- Webmaster's comments: A same-sex couple need not remain childless. They can adopt. There is also surrogate parenthood, artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, etc. whereby a same-sex couple can build a family.
Perhaps we could test every couple wanting a marriage license to affirm that they have both the intent and ability to conceive and have a successful pregnancy. Then we could deny marriage licenses to those who would remain without children. At least that would be consistent. Oh wait! That would mean that I -- an infertile heterosexual male -- could not have married my wife and had 22.1 years of bliss (and counting). So, cancel that thought.
The following information sources were used to prepare and update the above
essay. The hyperlinks are not necessarily still active today.
- Matthew Vines, "The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality," You Tube, 2012-MAR-10, at: http://www.youtube.com/
- Matthew Vines, transcript of his presentation, at: http://matthewvines.com/
- Stoyan Zaimov, "Matthew Vines: Bible does not condemn homosexuality," The Christian Post, 2012-SEP-25, at: http://www.christianpost.com/
Copyright © 2012 by Ontario Consultants on Religious
Originally written: 2012-OCT-01
Latest update: 2012-OCT-01
Author: B.A. Robinson